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	<title>Comments on: Arabic Explosion</title>
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	<description>ideas on translation...</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 23:00:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: transubstantiation</title>
		<link>http://transubstantiation.wordpress.com/2008/03/19/arabic-explosion/#comment-3032</link>
		<dc:creator>transubstantiation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transubstantiation.wordpress.com/?p=78#comment-3032</guid>
		<description>Michael, a god point of reference is the rise and fall of Yiddish. Your three points roughly reflect what factors needed to be in place for Yiddish to become the language of Ashkenazi Jews.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, a god point of reference is the rise and fall of Yiddish. Your three points roughly reflect what factors needed to be in place for Yiddish to become the language of Ashkenazi Jews.</p>
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		<title>By: michael farris</title>
		<link>http://transubstantiation.wordpress.com/2008/03/19/arabic-explosion/#comment-3029</link>
		<dc:creator>michael farris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:01:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transubstantiation.wordpress.com/?p=78#comment-3029</guid>
		<description>I don't know. If my plan was to try to create a market for 'dialect' Arabic translations (which it isn't). Then I do know three things that I'd do.

1. Focus on stuff for kids. Write off the adults, they're too set in their ways. Prepare materials for about the first five years before publishing much and then try to keep up as a generation used to reading things in the language they speak grows up.

2. Focus on getting them to write in the local language. A big factor in emerging literacy is the presence of authors. You get a half dozen people writing books in a language and they'll make the effort to get people to read them. In terms of kids, lots and lots of writing contests with attractive prizes.

3. Focus on modern things. Too often emerging literacy gets bogged down in folklore and recording traditions the young may not be interested in. Those are important but the primary focus should be in creating a medium for learning what they want about the world and not just things they already know (or don't want to know)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know. If my plan was to try to create a market for &#8216;dialect&#8217; Arabic translations (which it isn&#8217;t). Then I do know three things that I&#8217;d do.</p>
<p>1. Focus on stuff for kids. Write off the adults, they&#8217;re too set in their ways. Prepare materials for about the first five years before publishing much and then try to keep up as a generation used to reading things in the language they speak grows up.</p>
<p>2. Focus on getting them to write in the local language. A big factor in emerging literacy is the presence of authors. You get a half dozen people writing books in a language and they&#8217;ll make the effort to get people to read them. In terms of kids, lots and lots of writing contests with attractive prizes.</p>
<p>3. Focus on modern things. Too often emerging literacy gets bogged down in folklore and recording traditions the young may not be interested in. Those are important but the primary focus should be in creating a medium for learning what they want about the world and not just things they already know (or don&#8217;t want to know)</p>
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		<title>By: transubstantiation</title>
		<link>http://transubstantiation.wordpress.com/2008/03/19/arabic-explosion/#comment-3028</link>
		<dc:creator>transubstantiation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 05:38:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transubstantiation.wordpress.com/?p=78#comment-3028</guid>
		<description>Fascinating comments, Michael. The translation of lay texts into the localised versions may well take place first of all, but how long before more 'ambitious' and important are translated?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating comments, Michael. The translation of lay texts into the localised versions may well take place first of all, but how long before more &#8216;ambitious&#8217; and important are translated?</p>
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		<title>By: michael farris</title>
		<link>http://transubstantiation.wordpress.com/2008/03/19/arabic-explosion/#comment-3027</link>
		<dc:creator>michael farris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:51:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transubstantiation.wordpress.com/?p=78#comment-3027</guid>
		<description>IIRC the current theory in Arabic studies is that diglossia has always existed for Arabic. That is two versions simultaneously were spread, the formal (fusha) and a very, different colloquial spoken version from which the modern colloquials arose (the biggest evidence for this is circumstantial and based on features that all the colloquials share with each other but not fusha).

I think this might also tie in with another theory I've come across (but can't cite very well) that real hardcore fusha has never been spoken as such but was sort of a conlang.

Back to translation, I would assume that Quranic translation will develop in non-Arabic speaking contexts. It's all well and good to tell Turkish or Indonesian speakers that the version of the Quaran they can understand isn't real but the version that will be psychologically real to them is the version in their own language.

As for colloquial Arabic translations. I'd assume that would start more with translations of popular literature. 
I mean, how interesting can Harry Potter or the latest anime be in fusha? I bet Egyptian or Algerian kids would get much more into localized versions. And once people develop a taste for public language that they can easily use and understand, then all bets are off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IIRC the current theory in Arabic studies is that diglossia has always existed for Arabic. That is two versions simultaneously were spread, the formal (fusha) and a very, different colloquial spoken version from which the modern colloquials arose (the biggest evidence for this is circumstantial and based on features that all the colloquials share with each other but not fusha).</p>
<p>I think this might also tie in with another theory I&#8217;ve come across (but can&#8217;t cite very well) that real hardcore fusha has never been spoken as such but was sort of a conlang.</p>
<p>Back to translation, I would assume that Quranic translation will develop in non-Arabic speaking contexts. It&#8217;s all well and good to tell Turkish or Indonesian speakers that the version of the Quaran they can understand isn&#8217;t real but the version that will be psychologically real to them is the version in their own language.</p>
<p>As for colloquial Arabic translations. I&#8217;d assume that would start more with translations of popular literature.<br />
I mean, how interesting can Harry Potter or the latest anime be in fusha? I bet Egyptian or Algerian kids would get much more into localized versions. And once people develop a taste for public language that they can easily use and understand, then all bets are off.</p>
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		<title>By: transubstantiation</title>
		<link>http://transubstantiation.wordpress.com/2008/03/19/arabic-explosion/#comment-3026</link>
		<dc:creator>transubstantiation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:58:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transubstantiation.wordpress.com/?p=78#comment-3026</guid>
		<description>Not altogether. Dialects are defined as language use by a specific group of people. We might even go so far as to say that this is a form of diglossia where two different varieties are used depending on their function. The issue, however, probably boils down to a discussion of whether the different varieties of Arabic are dialects or languages, rather than the more neutral 'variety'.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not altogether. Dialects are defined as language use by a specific group of people. We might even go so far as to say that this is a form of diglossia where two different varieties are used depending on their function. The issue, however, probably boils down to a discussion of whether the different varieties of Arabic are dialects or languages, rather than the more neutral &#8216;variety&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Manar</title>
		<link>http://transubstantiation.wordpress.com/2008/03/19/arabic-explosion/#comment-3025</link>
		<dc:creator>Manar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:42:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transubstantiation.wordpress.com/?p=78#comment-3025</guid>
		<description>in other words...Dialects are no more than the spoken form of arabic which is "informal"...classical arabic is the written form..which is "formal"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>in other words&#8230;Dialects are no more than the spoken form of arabic which is &#8220;informal&#8221;&#8230;classical arabic is the written form..which is &#8220;formal&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Raf Uzar</title>
		<link>http://transubstantiation.wordpress.com/2008/03/19/arabic-explosion/#comment-3024</link>
		<dc:creator>Raf Uzar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:15:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Yes, I too find it hard to believe that the transmogrification of the Koran into different dialects will ever happen. However, the concept of 'dialect' itself is controversial as some of these dialects are not even mutually intelligible. What is more, people said the same thing about Latin and now we have French, Italian, Spanish, etc. etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I too find it hard to believe that the transmogrification of the Koran into different dialects will ever happen. However, the concept of &#8216;dialect&#8217; itself is controversial as some of these dialects are not even mutually intelligible. What is more, people said the same thing about Latin and now we have French, Italian, Spanish, etc. etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Manar</title>
		<link>http://transubstantiation.wordpress.com/2008/03/19/arabic-explosion/#comment-3023</link>
		<dc:creator>Manar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 08:50:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transubstantiation.wordpress.com/?p=78#comment-3023</guid>
		<description>"If and when the nations under Islam get the urge to begin translating the Qur’ān into their own varieties of Arabic (be they dialects or languages) we will most certainly see a linguistic explosion the like of which we have not seen for a long time."


I can assure you that this will never happen, not because it's deemed "sacrilegious", but simply because it's in Arabic which is comprehensible to all arab and islamic countries. it is true that very few people use the "classical" arabic as a means of daily communication but don't forget that it is the language of education, newspapers, press, official communication. having dialects in arabic is as simple as having english dialects or versions..(welsh..scottish..or indian Eng..French Eng..)
so having the Quran in different dialects will be just a funny idea!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If and when the nations under Islam get the urge to begin translating the Qur’ān into their own varieties of Arabic (be they dialects or languages) we will most certainly see a linguistic explosion the like of which we have not seen for a long time.&#8221;</p>
<p>I can assure you that this will never happen, not because it&#8217;s deemed &#8220;sacrilegious&#8221;, but simply because it&#8217;s in Arabic which is comprehensible to all arab and islamic countries. it is true that very few people use the &#8220;classical&#8221; arabic as a means of daily communication but don&#8217;t forget that it is the language of education, newspapers, press, official communication. having dialects in arabic is as simple as having english dialects or versions..(welsh..scottish..or indian Eng..French Eng..)<br />
so having the Quran in different dialects will be just a funny idea!!</p>
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		<title>By: transubstantiation</title>
		<link>http://transubstantiation.wordpress.com/2008/03/19/arabic-explosion/#comment-2951</link>
		<dc:creator>transubstantiation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 07:53:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>There was a time when the Latinate version of the Christian Bible was considered the only true Bible until the vernaculars of Europe made a stir. If any translations are to become official it will of course be in countries like Malaysia and Nigeria which are culturally distinct from the middle East.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was a time when the Latinate version of the Christian Bible was considered the only true Bible until the vernaculars of Europe made a stir. If any translations are to become official it will of course be in countries like Malaysia and Nigeria which are culturally distinct from the middle East.</p>
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		<title>By: Jimbo</title>
		<link>http://transubstantiation.wordpress.com/2008/03/19/arabic-explosion/#comment-2950</link>
		<dc:creator>Jimbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 17:52:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The problem is that the Koran is intrinsically linked with Classical Arabic; it is deemed to be the word of God, and replacing it with any other language is deemed sacrilegious. (Check out the front pages of translations of the Koran; they specifically refer to it as 'a version' or 'a rendition' or a translation of the Koran, _not_ the thing itself. You'll never see a vernacular edition of the Bible called that, will you? Reminds me of the US senator who's alleged to have said, "If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!")

I suspect that any such revolution in Moslem literature will arise from the non-Arabic peripheries of the faith - consider that the most populous Moslem countries are Indonesia, Malaysia (whose near-identical Bahasa Melayu/Indonesia language is a) simple to learn and b) regionally important as a wider lingua franca - ask the Moslem Thais and Mindanao Filipinos), India &#38; Pakistan (ditto Hindi/Urdu), and Nigeria - which apart from the major local languages, of course, is mainly culturally unified by... English. How wd that be for an idea? The language (ultimately) of Shakespeare, Dickens and Ronald Reagan becoming the Word of the Prophet. :D

On the same lines, as European Christianity either fissures into Protestant sub-sects or disappears altogether (what price Polish Catholicism after 100 years of freedom &#38; open borders?), and the Third World's Christian populations gain in importance, what about Spanish and Portuguese (and African varieties of French) becoming the next link in the relay race from Hebrew and Greek, through Latin, old Slavonic, German and English? Que le bon Dieu vous bendice. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is that the Koran is intrinsically linked with Classical Arabic; it is deemed to be the word of God, and replacing it with any other language is deemed sacrilegious. (Check out the front pages of translations of the Koran; they specifically refer to it as &#8216;a version&#8217; or &#8216;a rendition&#8217; or a translation of the Koran, _not_ the thing itself. You&#8217;ll never see a vernacular edition of the Bible called that, will you? Reminds me of the US senator who&#8217;s alleged to have said, &#8220;If English was good enough for Jesus, it&#8217;s good enough for me!&#8221;)</p>
<p>I suspect that any such revolution in Moslem literature will arise from the non-Arabic peripheries of the faith - consider that the most populous Moslem countries are Indonesia, Malaysia (whose near-identical Bahasa Melayu/Indonesia language is a) simple to learn and b) regionally important as a wider lingua franca - ask the Moslem Thais and Mindanao Filipinos), India &amp; Pakistan (ditto Hindi/Urdu), and Nigeria - which apart from the major local languages, of course, is mainly culturally unified by&#8230; English. How wd that be for an idea? The language (ultimately) of Shakespeare, Dickens and Ronald Reagan becoming the Word of the Prophet. <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>On the same lines, as European Christianity either fissures into Protestant sub-sects or disappears altogether (what price Polish Catholicism after 100 years of freedom &amp; open borders?), and the Third World&#8217;s Christian populations gain in importance, what about Spanish and Portuguese (and African varieties of French) becoming the next link in the relay race from Hebrew and Greek, through Latin, old Slavonic, German and English? Que le bon Dieu vous bendice. <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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